First and foremost, no one knows when the end of the world is. Jesus said no one knows the hour nor the day. As a small joke though, it does not say no one knows the year. The only thing we can do in this case is make our best educated guess. Even then there can be so much confusion it may not be worth worrying about. As long as people live the best way that they can and accept the fact that God came down as a man to live in our world and died so that we may have ever lasting life, then it doesn't matter when the world will end. Stay clear of people who claim to know when the end will come and who stand by their predictions wholeheartedly even after they were wrong. Even the prophets who were told straight from God about the coming of the Messiah were not told when it would happen but what to look for.
With that said, can there be educated guesses that will be pretty near correct? Sure. This will attempt to be one of those. This is not to proclaim that this is 100% correct. Sure does work though.
How do we begin? Oddly enough, we start finding the end at the very beginning. In Genesis chapter one we are given the basis for mankind, even its term of existence. God created all things in 6 days and then rested. So in essence all of creation was done in 7 days, hence this is why we use 7 days in a week. Why is this important? It sets up all we need to know for this topic.
How do we begin? Oddly enough, we start finding the end at the very beginning. In Genesis chapter one we are given the basis for mankind, even its term of existence. God created all things in 6 days and then rested. So in essence all of creation was done in 7 days, hence this is why we use 7 days in a week. Why is this important? It sets up all we need to know for this topic.
There is an idea of how numbers mean something. Some call it numerology. In the Hebrew language every mark, every letter, and every number have symbols and meanings. Such as the letter "aleph" (Greek=alpha or our letter "a") stands for ox, strength, and the number 1, All the other letters do the same thing. The second letter "bet" is also the number 2. The fifth letter is "hey", or the letter "h". It can mean to reveal. "Hey" also stands for the number five. As a number, 5 stands for grace. This is just to show you how things work. Let's look at the numbers 6 and 7. The number 6 is known as the number of man. The number 7 is known as the number of God. Notice on the 6th day, man was created and on the 7th day God rested and that day was supposed to be given to God, known as the Sabbath.
Now let's take another piece of scripture, 2 Peter 3:3-8 says:
- First, understand this: during the Last Days, scoffers will come, following their own desires and asking, “Where is this promised ‘coming’ of his? For our fathers have died, and everything goes on just as it has since the beginning of creation.” But, wanting so much to be right about this, they overlook the fact that it was by God’s Word that long ago there were heavens, and there was land which arose out of water and existed between the waters, and that by means of these things the world of that time was flooded with water and destroyed. It is by that same Word that the present heavens and earth, having been preserved, are being kept for fire until the Day of Judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed. Moreover, dear friends, do not ignore this: with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.
Peter is telling us about the last days. Many during this time will make fun of Christians who believe in the return of Jesus. They will not use scripture to understand the universe. They will deny that there will be a day of judgement in the end. Peter gives us insight to when that time is. One day is LIKE a thousand years. He is telling us that the days are symbols of years since he uses the word "like". He is quoting Psalms 90:4 to show his point.
Now let's start putting it together. There are 6 days for man, 1 for God. Or in other words, 6000 years of man. God will have 1000 years and will cause rest for the earth, based on Genesis, Psalms, and Peter. There will be 7000 years of existence for the earth. If we looked at genealogy of man, reconciling the written secular history of man and what the Bible states by giving genealogies, the creation of man happened somewhere around 3930 BC. Doing the math, 6000 - 3930 = 2070. By this calculation the return of Jesus that sets up the 1000 years of rest would be around 2070 AD.
As of this writing that means Jesus came somewhere between 2016 and 2020 years ago. His death would be somewhere around 30 AD or so. Jesus said He would be in the tomb for 2 days and on the 3rd day rise again. Using the number equivalency that Peter gave us that means 2000 years will go by symbolically and on the third day (one day after the 2000 years is over starts the next thousand years, hence the 3rd day). Sometime 2000 years after Jesus dies the next thousand years starts. But when is that?
Another prophecy states that the end cannot happen until Israel is in the hands of the Jews, Luke 21:24 says:
- Some will fall by the edge of the sword, others will be carried into all the countries of the Goyim, and Yerushalayim will be trampled down by the Goyim until the age of the Goyim has run its course.
The Goyim is "gentile" in Hebrew. Gentiles (non-Jews) will take over Jerusalem and will have a given time period to do so. Once the gentiles are out of the land then the end is near. Who are the gentiles? Rome had taken over the Palestine area many years before Jesus but allowed the area to be ruled locally with some autonomy. Herod was allowed to be king of the Jews. The Jews were allowed their own courts and so forth. But in 70 AD Rome destroyed Jerusalem. This ushers in the time of the gentiles. This is after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Doing the math, 2000+70= 2070.
For historical purposes here is a list of the "time of the gentiles":
- Rome 70-380 AD or so, depending on which history book
- Byzantine 380-630 AD
- Caliphates 630-1099 AD
- Crusaders of Europe 1099-1187 AD
- Caliphates 1187-1486
- Ottoman Empire 1486-1917
- British Mandate 1917-1948
Things really started to change in 1917. In 1917, WWI ended and Britain gained control over the land through a League of Nations mandate. A British Jew named Arthur Balfour, with the help of Walter Rothschild, came up with a plan to rebuild a homeland for the Jews in a movement called Zionism. The plan was not implemented right away. In 1948, after WWII had ended the Balfour Declaration, sanctioned by the new UN, created the state of Israel. But Jews were highly outnumbered by Palestinians at first. In 1950, Jewish Parliament passed the The Law of Return, officially calling all Jews back to Israel, setting up prophetically the end of the time of the gentiles. Jesus said His return will be like the times of Noah. Using the language that God gave Noah, man's days were numbered; 120 years until the promised destruction of the earth. Noah had 120 years to preach about the end and prepare for the day (Genesis 6). After the official call for the return of Jewish people from around the world, Jews have 120 years to return to Israel before the great destruction like Noah, this time by fire. Doing the math again, 1950+120= 2070.
For the end to come though, the Jews have to be in control of their land. This is why satan has twice caused the Jews to be dispersed into the world. Once through the Babylonian Captivity and the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome. Three times they have called the land "home". The first time they were led out of Egypt into the land. The second time Nebuchadnezzar let them come home. and the third time is the charm, after Hitler and the Holocaust. After each disaster and captivity, the Jews have always returned by the grace of God. Twice the Temple has been built and twice it has been destroyed. Prophecy says the Jews will build a 3rd Temple; third time is the charm. But to do that they have to be in control over their land. They couldn't do that until recent history. It will happen now. When will this happen? The best guess is 2063 AD. Daniel says there will be 490 years of prophecy.
- Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and for your holy city for putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place. Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times. Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over. He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.
Weeks here is symbolic of the amount of years. He said there will be 70 weeks left to end sin. The Messiah will bring in peace and forgiveness. 70 weeks of years means 490 years total. The second temple would take 49 years (7 weeks of years) to build. Then Jesus will come 434 years later (62 weeks of years). These two timed events equal 69 weeks of years (483 years). Daniel then says the Messiah will be cut off and all the world has to go through its turmoil and destructive nature. Then the last week of years will happen. That means 483 years will be used to prophecy the coming of the Christ, then He will come and then will have nothing to do with Messianic prophecy until the end. The last 7 years of Daniel's prophecy is added for the end of times. This is what many will say when the rapture and the 3rd Temple will happen. The Christians will be taken out of the way. In 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, the man who leads people away from the truth (the anti-Christ) will get power but only when that "which is standing in his way" is removed. What stands in his way? The Holy Spirit. That means the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth and the only way to do that is when the Christians who are filled with the Spirit have been removed, hence the so-called rapture. The anti-Christ will have those 7 years to wreck havoc upon the earth while portraying to be a man of peace. After that day of the rapture the 7 years of prophecy that are left will start.
Jesus one day went into the Temple and read from Isaiah 61 which says:
- The Spirit of Adonai Elohim is upon me, because Adonai has anointed me to announce good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted; to proclaim freedom to the captives, to let out into light those bound in the dark; to proclaim the year of the favor of Adonai and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn,
But Jesus did not read this whole passage. He stopped at "to proclaim the year of the favor of Adonai"- Luke 4: 18-19. He stopped because He knew the day of vengeance was still yet to come. He said He fulfilled that passage. But He only fulfilled part of it because the rest was yet to come.
As of this writing it is 2016. An educated guess means there are only 47 more years until we see the greatest destruction of all. Until then there will be wars, rumors of wars, pestilence, earthquakes, and other disasters and they will get worse and worse. Christians will be saved from the wrath of God just as in the days of Noah.
Remember you heard it here first.
Remember you heard it here first.
53 comments:
Good Post!!! Good to see you back in the trenches. :-) One question. How do you reconcile your view with what Y'shua said, in Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; and Luke 21:32, concerning the timing of the end days and his second coming?
You should know :)
First of course NO SCRIPTURE should stand alone. Secondly, each gospel is written for a different purpose. Matthew to the Jews, Luke to the Greeks, Mark to the Romans. They are not written in chronological order. When read separately, they serve their purpose but when read simultaneously they show a whole new picture. The disciples question Jesus about these things. And when read in real time order we see that there are three separate questions:
"As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, “Teacher, tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Jesus answers them in different gospels according to their purpose but His answer together is:
"And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He, the Christ,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ and will mislead many. Do not go after them. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.”
Then He continued by saying to them, “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues, the courts and prisons; you will be flogged bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake you will be hated by all nations. It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony.
This gospel of the kingdom must first be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. You will be hated by all because of My name, yet not a hair of your head will perish. The one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place where it should not be (let the reader understand). Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
continued...
But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a time of great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world which God created until now, nor ever will. Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. And then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ’; or, ‘Behold, He is there’; do not believe him;
“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance.
“So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
“But in those days immediately after the tribulation of those days there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Then He told them a parable. “Now learn the parable from the fig tree and all the trees: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Notice when He says it...at the end. The last generation is "this" generation.
Just doing my job. :-) I agree that no one knows the day or hour, except the Father. However, to support your thesis, I must bring up Amos 3:7.
"Surely, the Lord YHWH, does anything, without revealing it to his Servants and the Prophets."
Just as the Messiah's first coming was predicted with extreme accuracy, and hidden within the Feasts and Prophets, the scriptures are quite clear as to the timing of the end times and the Messiah's second coming.
Bottom line, I agree with your thesis, for the most part. However, I feel it's too narrow. That's the reason why I mentioned the verses above. The scriptures agree with your reasoning, but Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; and Luke 21:32 clearly talks about Jerusalem, being trodden by the gentiles, which could be creditably argued, as ending, on June 7, 1967. A generation, from that point, gives us June 7, 2038, as the beginning of the end times and the general time of Messiah's second coming. Even tho, I look for him everyday, I would not be surprised, at all, if he comes some time after June 7, 2038.
I look for the rapture of the Remnant of God/Completed Fullness of the Gentiles, on a future Rosh Hashanah, the 144,000 Jewish Tribesman turning to accept Y'shua, the True Messiah, on a future Yom Kippur, and the Second Coming of Y'shua, to the Mount of Olives, to dwell with his people, on a future Sukkot. His wrath will be tightly fitted into the time period between the last trump of Rosh Hashannah and the last day of Sukkot.
I hope to see you writing again, on a regualar basis, not hibernate, through the winter months, as you do, during the summer. :-)
Why 71 years as generation? 1967 to 2038?
I was very narrow, trying not to be too presumptuous and not being able to say exactly what I wanted it feels. I hope it makes sense.
Oops! Fat fingered the 8 twice. Sorry, I was typing on my phone. You are correct, it's 2037. It makes sense to me, and I'm hard to please. LOL
Still....why 70 years then as a generation? I have heard 40 and 60 before as well. Why 70?
I'm sorry. I didn't answer your question. I never understood 40, 60 and 100 as the generation, even though all three can be extrapolated from the Scriptures. However, Psalm 90:10 says the days of our lives are 70 years, possibly 80, if we are strong.
Same idea. I used the words Jesus said about the last days being like Noah--120 days.
120 days???? Man! We are over achievers. 🤗
Ok. Ok. Do I have to block you? 120 years! Our days are numbered. I was just saving time by combining the two things.
I honestly think that, between the both of us, we got the date range down pat.
End of the world ? or the end of the age? big difference.
This is One of the advantages of really considering audience relevance as part of the equation. Also I have found that looking at it in a more historical viewpoint for an explanation it take lots of second guessing out of the way! If you can truly understand what really did happen with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD . it all come together and makes much more sense! I no longer worry about my flight in the winter ..LOL!
No don’t need to run to the hills , all first century fulfillment.
End of the age is the 70 AD. End of the world is 2070 which is also another "age". End of the age Jesus said the temple will be trampled. End of the world the Jews will come back to Israel ready to rebuild the temple. So yes, big difference. Both of them were mentioned in the "combined passages" I posted in the comment section. Jesus mentioned both the destruction of the temple and the world in the passages. So yes, perhaps 1st century Christians and the last century of Christians are these generations. Alpha and Omega. The first shall be last, the last shall be first.
There are different Greek words and meanings for the English word “WORLD”! A much better English word for more correctness is “AGE” in almost all situations!
Matt: 24:14 KJV
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Matt 24:14 YLT
And this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive.
World …oikoumenē …
1. the inhabited earth
1. the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
2. the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
Matt.13:40 KJV
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Matt. 13:40 YLT
As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age
World … aiōn
1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. the worlds, universe
3. period of time, age
Romans 1:8
First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world.
Romans 1:8 YLT
First, indeed, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is proclaimed in the whole world
World … kosmos …
1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3. the world, the universe
Colossians 1:23 King James Version (KJV)
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
NOTE: Whatever Jesus said that was going to happen .IT DID! And it was going to happen in THAT generation not some 2000 plus year far off generation.
His own disciples were promise to witness the events. Some were promised not to die until they witnessed it all.
Mark 9:1
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power
Luke 9:27
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
This was going to be a process and or a passing way of the old covenant. And transition into the new! A passing away of the old heaven and earth making way for the New Heaven and earth! Jesus’ kingdom will have no stop and go, stop and go; 1000 years and then this or that to happen. No end to His reign!
Please note: this is not taking away what happen at the cross! But Jesus’ final act of judgment on the city that killed the prophets and slain Him would be a mist do thing to place a final ending to the OLD Covenant--- “a passing away”
Reminder, Jesus was already standing in the rebuilt temple! His feet already touched MT Olive. The disciples were witnessing the Abomination of Desolation. Many did escape to the hills. Jesus did return in His glory, with Judgment and with Angels , just like He said!
The failure to recognize what happened in 70 AD and ALL the angelic and cosmic occurrences that happened is to miss everything. Some will only recognize partial fulfillment but not full. And I understand why. However another 100-150 years from now they might! LOL!
I am not saying that this is it or is THE ONLY possibility! But one thing for sure it does away completely with all the End times Madness!
I’m not saying you are right or wrong, everything is open for possibilities. There are some things I have a hard time figuring out with the pre-trib, post- trib folks and all the other “end times” thinkers, with all the divided up time schedules and looking for literal moon turning to blood, etc. I think I lean like most Churches of Christ with the partial fulfillment. But I must say the (Full) fulfillment (one event, not two or three) just makes sense, if one can make a shift into a higher spiritual purpose. Maybe “spiritual” is not the best name!
Flavius Josephus also describes the destruction of Jerusalem and many other writings, research has been composed.
The translation of age and world is fine. And it fits. But what is an "age"? I understand the definitions but they are still vague. And age is just a time period. It could be physical, it could be spiritual. Jews say there is an olam hazah and an olam haba; the world we have and the one that is to come. Are there only two "ages"? In the term they use it yes. The question is that you mention what kind of age is Jesus referring to? I believe that 70 AD is the end of an age. I believe that the end of the world is another end of an age, but perhaps two different types of ages.
In 70 AD the age "time'" of the gentiles started. And maybe all the things that you are inferring did happen in 70 AD but that doesn't change the end of the world "age".
The disciples asked Jesus three separate questions. He gave separate answers but most people think they are one answer and that it all happens at the same time.
No. Jerusalem will be destroyed and set up an age of the gentile. And the world will be new in the end of the world age. We will need to look for signs when these things happen.
The problem I have with preterism is that it takes all spirituality out of the picture. Even you said, "maybe spiritual is not the best name". If ALL was fulfilled in 70 AD then NONE of the scriptures is for us. If it is ALL done then we have to do nothing, feel nothing, have faith in nothing, and none of the promises are for us. If Jesus was only speaking to them at the time then they are only stories for us and not reality.
If this all happened then the rest of existence is only physical. Preterism ends the spiritual age with a physical event. Those who are full preterists say the return of Jesus was only symbolic. Those who are partial say it physically happened but ended the spiritual age. How can that be?
Preterism seems like it disregards many of the prophecies that Daniel and others had. What does the weeks mean if preterism is the correct view? What does the statue of all the material mean? Why the specific numbers mentioned? Why was it detailed the way it is in Genesis? Revelation? Thessalonians? To be a full preterist means that some of the scripture can not be true.
I don't think it does away from the end time madness, I think it adds more questions, and I think it causes people to not care about it. Maybe we shouldn't but I do.
My own questions:
What was the abomination?
How will we the signs be to know when the end of the WORLD happens? Will we know?
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
NOTE: the WAS PREACHED To EVERY CREATURE
Question: How can Paul make these statements?
Romans 1:8 YLT
First, indeed, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is proclaimed in the whole world. (WHICH WHOLE WORLD)
Question: Was Paul’s understanding of the Whole world different than you or I?
World … aiōn
1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. the worlds, universe
3. period of time, age
World …oikoumenē …
1. the inhabited earth
1. the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
2. the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
When Jesus came in judgement in 70 AD. Could this have been” the world” that was in existence that was the pivotal understanding which everything hinged on?
Did he really have America in mind? Not for salvational reasons but for prophecy fulfillment?
After the New Jerusalem /New Heaven/new earth/ the passing away of the old order!
There is only ONE Nation, ONE priesthood, ONE RACE, ONE People, One Body , One Covenant today?
IF not..then we are still in the old things / Covenant.
This gospel of the kingdom must first be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
This gospel of the kingdom must first be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come
Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Colossians 1:23
23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which HAS BEEN PREACHED to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
What gospel was preached? Who are the “every Creatures”
Has/was the Old Test Covenant when Paul made this statement still valid /in effect?
Could He be talking about the very thing he was looking for … to end to come …Mosaic age? It has to pass away first, right. Two Covenants can not be operative at the same time can it?
Well let me back up. Let’s try to settle this first Lol!
Mark 9:1
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power
Bible search results
Matthew 16:28
Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
Mark 9:1
And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
Luke 9:27
But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”
All related no doubt to an event of some sort! What event and who was alive and who died? And what did they witness? When did they see the Son of man ciming?
Isn't He talking about the church being formed and the Spirit being given. Some who were alive when Jesus spoke these words would still be alive at the time of Pentecost when the kingdom of God came with power.
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
IN Judgement and fire they were “rewarded” those who remained faithful til then end, did not love their own life, did not deny Him. After God’s judgement of Jerusalem for 3.5 years to come Christian were like unheard of and live in peace. And many years later the church grew under Rome.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
See what was said in history about the 4 winds during the 70AD event! And the great trumpet sound!
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels Important Not “world” but AGE! … aiōn RELATED to 70A
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in THIS adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
NOTE: In THIS generation not THAT generation! He already talked about how His generation sought after a sign, HE told them none would be give except! He spoke so many time about His generation would not pass until…..!
You didn't answer my questions but I will go on.
Do you think Paul preached to every creature such as salamanders and crickets? Yes. Paul's view of the world was probably different but what is the context of what he was saying? Rome was "the world" at the time. One out of every four people lived in the Roman Empire. Did Paul preach to the whole world as we know it? No. So I would say that his view was different. And perhaps it was the same context that Jesus spoke of...maybe.
Did He have America on His mind? I imagine He had everyone on His mind. If we weren't on His mind then did He forget about us? Plus who said the USA is in any prophecy anyway? The prophetic connection is not America but Israel and Jerusalem.
I am not for sure what you mean by the new heaven/new earth sentence. Are you asking a question? Please reword and explain.
There are two things being taught. One is about the kingdom and the other is the gospel of grace. The passages I brought in are not about grace, but the prophetic kingdom. So to answer your question no there can not be two covenants of the same kind at the same time.
The passage in Mark and Matthew you mention are talking about the prophetic kingdom, not a covenant. Jesus was saying that there will be some who will see the kingdom come and that was fulfilled at the day of Pentecost. Notice when the Law was given 3000 people died that day but they only died when Moses brought down the Decalogue. Not when they were written. There is a "passing away". On the day of Pentecost 3000 people were added to their number. Yet the Temple was still around. Jews were still going to sacrifice. What was the thing that would end that age or covenant? The destruction of the Temple. We probably agree on that. But that is not the "age" that Jesus is referring to in later passages. If you reread what I put together and see the whole passage together it makes more sense.
Meanwhile while I wait….it has been said that the Mt. Olives discourse must be viewed as a three part question. It seems to be more conjecture on the part of others in order to make their presupposition to fit. I find it very applicable as a one time period of time event to usher in the “passing away,” and the witnessing by those of THAT generation not passing away until as well as those THAT would not taste of death until all was fulfilled. The Son of man coming in Clouds of judgment (which is an Old Test. concept. as in "like manner")
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
In Judgement and fire they were “rewarded”, those who remained faithful till then end, did not love their own life, did not deny Him. After God’s judgement of Jerusalem for 3.5 years to come Christians were like unheard of and lived in peace. And many years later the church grew under Rome.
"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
See what was said in history about the 4 winds during the 70 AD event! And the great trumpet sound!
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. Important Not “world” but AGE! … aiōn RELATED to 70A
"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in THIS adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
NOTE: In THIS generation not THAT generation! He already talked about how His generation sought after a sign, HE told them none would be given except! He spoke so many times about This generation would not pass until…..!
Brenda,
I tend to agree with what you have said about the kingdom of God and His power being shown to some of those who would not die until they see it.
Just thinking out loud hear… the event that Jesus had in mind was not the sending of the promise of the Holy Spirit or Pentecost . This was spoken by the prophet Joel that in the last days (toward the end of the Mosaic age) this event would happen and Peter confirmed it! They did not see the Son of Man coming in Judgement, with His angels, etc, at that time. It had nothing to do with the “end of the Age”. It was not the New Heaven and New earth (symbolic for something else) as spoken in Rev. Nor was it the Transfiguration as some have suggested! The end shall not happen until all things fulfilled! The Mosaic age (law) had to pass away the old heaven and earth, the OT is full of symbolism referencing how heaven and earth were witness of God. EX. Many times God says “heaven and earth bare witness against you because of such and such … they were in violation of the law! The “Event” is not some 2 hrs. ordeal. It was a process. Failure to take in account of WHAT ALL happen with the destruction of Jerusalem (the city where the Lord was slain) then you will miss the central theme of the Day of the Lord and all what the prophets had foretold. Yes I know there is other scriptures to consider as “at the sound of the trumpet, the blink of an eye”, etc. Another subject with another possibility of what the “rapture” or this slit second event was perhaps about.
Again back to square root one, as C.S.Lewis recognized it was not the two events we describe above. There are several other reasons why not, save for later. It bothered him so much his final answer was …that Jesus must have gotten it wrong , because Jesus did state that not even the Son knew! I don’t believe Jesus got anything wrong. The simple truth was and we just skirt around it is that ALL on them believed that Jesus would return in their life time, in their generation, they would see this pass away, and see the new heaven and earth. The whole book of Rev. was about the immediate, John was shown the things that would SOON take place events, even closes with “even so Lord Jesus come quickly!!
Wow!!! So many concepts being thrown around. First, I applaud the use of the original text. Most English versions are denominationally-centric and full of error. The only way to get to the original doctrine, set forth by God, is to purge our minds of what we have been taught and start from scratch. At that point, it surprisingly becomes very clear what the scripture teach.
As for the end of an age or the end of the world, they are different. However, one of the last ages and the end of the world will have the same terminus. We are presently in the Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven age. The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are presently running parallel, but the Kingdom of Heaven will have it's terminus when the fullness of gentiles is complete, just before the short age of God's Wrath runs it's course, which terminates with the end of the world, as we know it, then begins the Millennial Age. Wow!!! I'm out of breath, just writing it down. LOL
The Age of the Torah and Nevi'im terminated, with John baptizing the Messiah.
The Age of the Renewing of the Torah, the Gospel, began with the teaching of the Messiah and continues today.
The Age of the House of Israel was interrupted in 70 AD and began again on May 14, 1948.
The Age of the Terminal Generation began it's generational countdown to the End of the World, in 1967.
The Age of the Gentiles is a tricky one. There are numerous ones, with the first stage of the Gentiles during the time of Enoch, Job, most likely terminating at Melchizedek.
The one, that we are part of, is the Age of the Torah Gentiles or the House of the Gentiles. This is the grafting of the House of the Gentile with the House of Judah, which began just after the Age of the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit began, which was first given first to the Jew, then later to the gentiles, at the beginning of Shaul's ministry. By the way, all this was foretold in the Torah and Nevi'im.
As a side note, it appears the Age of the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit could end as early as when the Man of Perdition comes on the scene, but for sure before the Age of God's Wrath begins.
Nestled in, just before the Age of the Wrath of God, the Tribulation Age, phase one and two, must run its short seven year stint.
I said all that to say that, if I understood anonymous correctly, and please correct me, if I am wrong, anonymous is confusing the end of the Age of the House of Israel with the Age of Tribulation. It happens a lot. When this confusion occurs, one must always reset his compass with Daniel 9.
I don't want to say anymore until anonymous confirms or denies my understanding.
Shalom.
My background would be in the restoration movement, Churches of Christ who are mostly Amillennialist there are some who are pre-millennialist and post, some pre-trib, and post trib and so on. Although my journey for the last 20 plus yrs. has been in many camps, Evangelical, Charismatic ones. I was always troubled by eschatology and so many ideas and the historical beginnings of many of these ideas. To me it has caused more confusion and divisions than anything. It has created an end time madness with date settings, promotion of escapism, an over obsession with literalism. About five or six years ago I started listening to Don Preston, he is a Preterist, which basically focuses on part of the audience relevance/importance and what was going on or has gone on in the historical context and how it relates to scriptures. The more I studied the more it just made simple/ good sense! I’m still working through it. I am not as resolved with it as I am on my stand with Christian Universal Reconciliation.
So I am not opposed to others ideas, theology in general is man’s best guess!
I think the other views create more questions and problems than answers. But to keep in simple for me is that there are greater spiritual insights and a higher meaning than trying to literalize scripture to the degree you come up against a wall over and over then redo or always have to revise like Hal Linsey. The last 10 years my focus has been on the misused or miss- interpretation of certain words and the historical religious politics that get entwined when creating translations. Words like hell, eternal, torment, world, etc.
Sorry for getting sidetracked, back to the issue at hand. I will blame C. S. Lewis for some of this. He often stated as an apologist that when speaking to folks of Jewish background is that one of their objections is that Jesus did not do what he said he was going to do, that is return in his disciple’s lifetime! He also said that the scripture as such ….Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works … Was an embarrassment so he concluded that Jesus made a mistake!
Anonymous,
Jesus did not make a mistake. Jesus did come in His Kingdom in that generation. He came as a mediator between man and God, the reward being forgiveness of sins and eternal life and the works they were to do was to believe in Jesus:-
'Then they said to him, 'What must we do, to be doing the works of God?' Jesus answered them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.'
John ch. 6 vs. 28 and 29
"The more I studied the more it just made simple/ good sense! I’m still working through it."
Although, I understand this I don't think this is a good way to decide things. Being simple is not always the best way. Many religions are like that. Buddhism makes good sense. If there is a positive karma then there is an equal and opposite negative karma that keeps harmony of the universe. Sometimes making sense just causes us not to really understand things. Not saying it always does this or is even a horrible thing but we can't base our beliefs because "it is simple".
"I am not as resolved with it as I am on my stand with Christian Universal Reconciliation."
But whether you believe pre, post, or a- shouldn't effect your idea of reconciliation. Just because Jesus returned in 70 AD or will return in 2070 AD doesn't effect judgement, does it? Why would preterism determine reconciliation or not. This needs to be explained more if you don't mind.
"Was an embarrassment so he concluded that Jesus made a mistake!"
But can you base your belief on what he thought was a mistake? Maybe he was just wrong.
Ecc. 1:4 Generations come and generations go, BUT THE EARTH REMAINS FOREVER!
I find it very interesting regarding the Old Test. language of the Prophets and their apocalyptic wording about all kinds of judgments and the relationship of the New Test times and the same apocalyptic language that they used.
In the Old Test you read how God rides on the clouds and when he comes down. the mountains quake and are moved out of their places. How the mountains are melted like wax before Him. You read how he rides on the winds as a chariot, and smoke and fire out of His nostrils. The imagery, the exaggerated, the severe punishments warnings and how they will never be no more ,etc…. are meant to get your attention no doubt. One of my favorite is, “he who curses his mother and father the ravens shall come a pluck your eyes out”. Ok I’ve seen lots of cursing but have never seen anyone eyes get plucked out! But without understanding of the purpose driven reasoning behind it you will miss the whole point.
Behold He comes in clouds of glory, etc. There is so much imagery, figurative meanings of that type of language that is about pending judgments, as such with fires of Gehenna, a national judgment that Jesus forewarned that was coming.
QUOTE: The Age of the House of Israel was interrupted in 70 AD and began again on May 14, 1948.
It was what Jesus had been preparing His believers for the fulfillment of His mission!
Not interrupted, but destroyed, all that Daniel vision (7-9) foretold happen during the seven year period and the final 4th Kingdom.
The Day of the Lord! Again if you are not willing to read history and understand what all really happen then you will not make the connection!
There is only one race/people , one nation (Holy), only one priesthood, one Body/Church (new Jerusalem) One covenant (New). One remnant, He doesn’t have two of anything! (there is no Jew, Greek or Gentile)
A few things that I keep in the back of my mind as I study is:
God says: Whatever I kill, I can resurrect!
Whatever I wound, I can Heal, Whatever I destroy I can rebuild!
Whatever I erase, I can rewrite Whatever I divorce, I can remarry
Whatever I punish, I can reprieve.
I will never allow nor create a hopeless situation to ever win out!
I am still God even beyond the grave!
There is No end to His Kingdom , it doesn’t stop and go and restart!
The End of the World!! May not be a reality as physical but maybe an End of the World as some type of system , power or age, yes!
The stars are not going to fall, sun not give light, moon turn to blood in a biblical sense. If it does physically happen then we are talking about something altogether different story!
However I could be wrong, wrong and wrong, that is why pan-millennialism works fine for me, not to worry it will all pan out in the “END”.. I’m not against folks spending all the time they wish looking to the sky, or watching the fig tree or genetically trying to produce a red spotted heifer. God is more than able to understand us and our struggles!
Yes Brenda you are correct Jesus did not make a mistake! But the Mt. of Olive discourse has nothing really to do with what you are referring to. I’m refereeing mostly to the often misstated “Second Coming” which in if itself the bible doesn’t use the word “second”. All that I am referring to is the coming of or THE “Day of the Lord”!
Preterism as a Christian eschatological view interprets some (Partial Preterism) or all (Full Preterism) prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. This school of thought interprets the Book of Daniel as referring to events that happened in the second century BC, while seeing the prophecies of Revelation as events that happened in the first century AD.
The scriptures below are in direct correlations to His coming or appear “again” after the destruction of the old heaven and earth (Judaism / Old covenant) or “passing away” (a process) that He Himself will bring judgement upon the city that had slain Him! In order that He would bring forth the New Heaven and earth (Kingdom/New Jerusalem). And that some would be alive to see it in the realm of ALL that happen in 70AD.
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"
"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
AND thus the fulfillment of the “Second” coming! They also believe that the book of Revelation was written way before 90 AD.
Hi Anonymous, I'm a little slow. I've re-read your comments and PLEASE, don't take this the wrong way, but it appears that your misunderstanding of or struggling with understanding scripture comes from losing your tether. Correct me, if I'm wrong, but it appears that you are searching for truth, by using sources outside of scripture and the direct leading of God's Holy Spirit.
Again, I applaud and commend you for getting back to the root meaning of the scriptures. That is the correct path. However, it appears that you follow the false denominational teachings of John Preston, rather than allowing Ruach Hokadesh, the Holy Spirit of God, lead you into all truth. John 16:13. No other teacher is required.
My suggestion, as is the same suggestion, which is scripturally based, is to get back to the raw scripture and let scripture interpret itself, with the leading of the Spirit. With the said, there is nothing wrong with listening to people like John Preston, but only after having a solid Spirit based understanding of scripture. At that point, we are told to received any message with eagerness of heart, but search the scriptures daily, as you anchor to reality. Acts 17:11
You also mentioned that there are some that have an "over obsession with literalism." The big problem, with that, is that includes the Nevi'im (Prophets), David and our Meshiach, Y'shua (Jesus). They are literalists. From Moshe (Moses) through the Nevi'im (Prophets), all the way to the Meshiach, we are given levels of scriptural interpretation, they are:
1. Literal
2. Metaphoric
3. Symbolic
4. Modeled
5. Moralistic
6. Legalistic
7. Prophetic
However, whatever level you are on, you must always have your tether in the literal, regardless if your carnal mind says, "NO WAY". "I CAN'T WRAP MY MIND AROUND THIS!!!". If you read the scriptures, you will find that the Messiah always interpreted scripture literally and he is our example, a pretty good example, at that. Wouldn't you say?
continued from above
You also mentioned, "Christian Universal Reconciliation". Well, my friend, the basic premise of all souls, sinful or not, returning to God, eventually, is totally against what the scriptures teach. You need to distance yourself from that.
In the end, you must develop a personal kinsmanship with God directly, not a third party relationship, through a false denominational doctrine, such as Preterism, Amillennialism, Pretribulationism, etc. Get back to God's doctrine, not man's doctrine. Didn't Y'shua say that he hates the way of the Nicolaitans? That's denominationalism, where the individual is ruled over by someone else's doctrine, physically and spiritually. Once you purge your mind, of all the denominational garbage, you will be blown away, with how clear the scriptures and the voice of God becomes. He will show you many things to clear the way for Godly Kinsmanship and you'll have absolutely no doubt that you will never hear the words, >b>"Depart from me, I never knew you." But "Well Done!!!! Good and Faithfull Servant. Welcome Home, B'nai Elohim!
For years, I was in your shoes, other than the "All Ways To God" view. I knew the Bible, pretty well. But, I was knocked down, to my knees, at a "Promise Keepers" event. I don't tell many people this, but the Spirit of God came upon me and told me those same words, "You Don't Know Me!!!!". I said, "Show me way, Lord." It still causes me to shutter and tremble. But the rest is HIS STORY. PUN INTENDED. :-)
With absolutely, NO DOUBT, I am ECHAD, One with Adonai, through the Messiah. I never miss a day to proclaim, "B'ruch Attah Y'shua B'shem Adonai." Blessed is he, Y'shua, who comes in the name of the Lord. I know Y'shua, is my Brother, My Willing Substitutional Sacrifice, My Kinsman, My Lord, and we have a Loving Father, who continually reveals more and more of himself, to me, everyday.
Or you can ignore me. :-(
Shalom
I do realize that there are a few unanswered questions, the original posting centered around “when was the end of the World”? My first thoughts were, one, what world, what do you mean by world/earth? Second the Greek word is aion or aionias which means age! There are Greek words for earth as in the planet but not used as much as you think. When we say a person is “worldly” ( a system of sort that lead them) you know what they mean. The other points were showing a connection or other possible other meanings of the term “Heaven and Earth” it is often used as the “two witnesses” that must be in order to bier witness against someone as God Himself used the term. It was symbolic of All that the law stood for and their violations of it. Jesus reiterated this thinking when He said … For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled NOW GET THIS you may need to read it a few times. What did Jesus say that would have to happen before All is fulfilled? YES, the passing away of Heaven and Earth. (not literal) The old had to pass first!!!
The Heaven and Earth judgement had to happen ( the destruction of the city that slain the Lord) as a sign that the law and all that it stood for was soon passing away. This had to happen first in order for the New Heaven and Earth to come into existence. AND again this was the Event of His “second” coming never was to be a physical one but Spiritual one , one In the Judgment that He himself told His disciples that some would not die until THEY saw it!
Tim,
I didn’t mean “simple” as in the road to least resistance. I meant after a period of time it became clear and the answer was right in front of me… so simple!
Hi, No Doubt
…I hear you, thank you for your concerns and I have been down this road on many occasions so I’m kind of accustom to getting this reaction. I could go into a very long and in depth discourse on why I totally disagree with several of your presumptions about me. But what good would that do, seriously ? I think it would great to stay with scripture and conversation pertaining to the context of it without getting defensive and resorting to making personal assumption about the other person. It’s amazing to me that it’s Always the other guy who has it all wrong…LOL!
Anonymous, Out of Love and obedience unto the Lord, I have shown you the error of your beliefs and gave you my testimony. Your response was to receive the message and check it out for yourself, not reiterate tired old denominational doctrines, that don't agree with the whole counsel of God. I can show you numerous prophesies, that have not been fulfilled, and show you that the Law will be with us forever. Y'shua fulfilled the justice or the sting of death of the Law, he did not fulfill the letter of the Law, for it is written that the Law is written upon the hearts of the Remnant of God. Also, the Law will be used to convict those who refuse the sacrificial gift of God's son. My suggestion is the same. Get back to your Hebraic roots and be led by the Spirit of God. He is calling your name. Please answer his call. He loves you and wants you to come home.
I do leave you with two old Jewish sayings. "In all your endeavors, you must always use the whole counsel of God." and "By the testimony of two or more, may the Truth be known. " I do hope and pray that you eventually understand what they mean.
Tim,
Good luck on this one. As for now, I shake the dust, from my feet
Shalom
I have to say that we could know the Bible from end to end but still not know God. The Pharisees knew the scriptures well, but did not know God. Jesus said to beware of the 'leaven' (doctrine) of the Pharisees. Leaven is used to inflate bread and the spiritual bread that we must eat can also be inflated by false doctrine. We are told that the secret things belong to God, those revealed belong to us, and we need take no thought for tomorrow.
So, let me clarify a few things and get us back on target.
1. The "world" I am referring to is all physical life as we know it.
2. I understand there are different "ages", categorical, historical, and covenantal (that isn't a word but it will work)
--the age we have and the age to come
--creation, flood, bondage, law, grace, captivity, gentile, destruction
--adamic, mosaic, davidic, messianic, apostolic
3. If we read the whole passage and put it together we see all of the above (#2) in the passage.
4. The OT is about the physical (LAW) and the NT is all about the spiritual (GRACE/TRUTH).
5. There are "passing aways", the point is "when?"
--The age of the Jews passed away in 70 AD, the age of the Gentiles will pass 2000 years after that
--each covenant passes away when a new one is established
6. Could universal reconciliation be the path? Maybe. It would fit God's "will that all men be saved", but does it fit all scripture? I can't see it all.
With that said, I believe in the literal interpretation as much as possible, unless the two Ps show up--prophetic or poetic, then it takes on different meanings. I believe in a pre-trib view to where those who believe will be spared like Noah and Abraham. I believe in a 7000 year existence of a physical age and an eternal spiritual age, before and after the physical one.
Now let's stay on the path.
Quote: From No Doubt…
"Tim,
Good luck on this one. As for now, I shake the dust, from my feet.
No Doubt"
So sorry that you gave up so quickly ....but if the Spirit of the Lord prompted you to “shake the dust from your feet” then yes you should by all means obey. But if your own decision to do as such and such…. it honestly sounds more like a copout or some form of fearfulness or you just would rather not and this of course could explain you not answering any of the questions that I proposed.
Ok Tim it’s back to you and me!
Mark 9:1
"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power"
Luke 9:27
"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."
Matthew 25:31
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:'
To some degree we talked about that maybe it was the transfiguration that he was speaking of. I am not sure but check; I think the transfiguration already happen, not sure though. Although you sort of get the idea that several have died and just some would be alive to see this event. Maybe the day of Pentecost, but all were still alive. As the church moves forward towards 70 AD, several had died! But then we run into the fundamental problem of the “coming” of The Son of man which “IF” this speaks in direct correlations of those still alive witnessing ALL THAT HAPPENS …then it fits very well! Just saying! But it’s another type of “coming” that centers around everything that foretold about His First Mission to the lost sheep/Ghenna Judgment/how to escape/running to the hills/when they see the city being surrounded and on and on! AGAIN WHAT DOES HISTORY “RECORD”???
Again I have said over and over… if a person does not see the clear event that happened and the concepts of what the Destruction of the Temple and the city that slain the Lord is about then they will not make the important connection to the above verses. Remember the Jews missed Him the first time. They were expecting something different, maybe we should not fall into the same theological trap. Just saying!
Ok, then if there is no answer, because we just don’t know, will we deny that the first century believers actually believed that they were going to see Jesus IN THEIR LIFETIME, or did they view as a hundred other events would had to happen first in the future 1948 by the way that was the year I was born so I know that I must be involved somewhere …lol! Or some of long string of events, therefore words like soon, quickly, at the door, soon come to past or THIS generation does not really mean a whole lot …just saying!
SO, we are back to the original questions. What was this event and was the first century believers mistaken?
In fairness, the questions were directed to me :)
Mark 9, Luke 9 and Matthew 25 are not the same story. Luke and Mark are but Matthew is a different piece of the puzzle. In the Luke and Mark passage the transfiguration had not happened yet. But I think it is the Pentecost. This would book end the time of the law. The giving of the law, the passing away of the Abrahamic covenant, was given at Mount Sinai. 3000 people died when Moses got down, even though the law was written, there was a time of "in between", granted not a long one. The day of Pentecost, the law was now going to pass away. 3000 people were added to their numbers. This was about 35 AD I would imagine. The complete passing away came in 70 AD. A new age (using your perception) would start---the age of the Gentiles. But the end of the world, which is what this lesson is about, ends all things for man and ushers in the final age, the age of the Kingdom of God. 1000 years of power and glory. Some of THIS age will not taste death before the end.
"Although you sort of get the idea that several have died and just some would be alive to see this event."
That kind of depends of who he is talking to. If He is only talking to the "12" or "11" at this point, then only one would live, John. By 70 AD the others were all dead even Paul. If He was talking to more than just those men then it could fit.
"Maybe the day of Pentecost, but all were still alive."
Again it all depends on who He was talking to. This time it's reversed.
If He is talking about OUR generation, then it all fits perfectly. When these things start in our generation, some will live to see it all happen.
"AGAIN WHAT DOES HISTORY “RECORD”???"
Well, some would argue that Josephus is not as accurate as any Christians would hope. he also wrote fictitious writings on the side. Some think these got into his history of the Jews. But I think those who say that are just adding stories of their own. Nevertheless He never mentions Jesus. He does mentions a name close to it. So, I don't know if history actually records a "return of Jesus" or not. There was of course the destruction of the Temple. But to me this just tells me that that was the finalization of the ending of the law. Jews could no linger sacrifice. The physical accountability is now replaced by grace. Jews will want to sacrifice again in a Temple. Ask them, they want it. I have asked them on forums. They want it.
Did Jews/Christians think they were going to see Jesus in their lifetime? Some I would imagine. The Thessalonians even thought they had missed it. Some people today feel the same way as both of these groups. All throughout history some feel it was in their lifetime and some thought they had missed it. Does it really matter what THEY thought?
Many of the terms "quickly" and "soon" are not time measurements but adverbs as in when it happens it will be "swift", not as in "tomorrow"
"What was this event and was the first century believers mistaken?"
We don't know what they thought, only some assumptions by some.
Good answer Tim! Even Paul included myself with those who would REMAIN, right?
And you are correct some had thought they had missed it …why?…. Perhaps because they had been instructed it was to be another kind of event another kind of catastrophic event.. whatever kind of “event” Paul was very careful in telling them that they would be a part of it.
What does the word imminent mean. Was the Lord’s return not imminent? He sort of gave them false hope when he told them to just hold on in their sufferings and that relief is on it’s way ….not 2000 plus years down the road … that would be false hope! It seems this was The major theme and when the Catholic church was having a tough time explaining the crowds of Jews changing this view that Jesus was a false Messiah they were cornered and started to develop other ideas to explain this way! That is why the oldest historical church east and west did not take the 1000 years literal… that thinking did not come about what like 1400 years later. And the development of that idea keep getting stranger and stranger as time went on.
It really took off with Margaret McDonald's Vision in the 1800’s thus the beginning of “end times’ confusion or clarity depending on who you are!
I think Paul did include you and me in those who MAY remain.
Some thought they had missed it for the same reasons why some of us today (preterists) think they missed it, they didn't understand it. I believe Paul was not telling them they would be a part of the event but telling them the reason why he knows it hadn't happened yet is because he was still here. Paul did not know when it would happen. He was telling all to hold on because "if it would happen in their lifetime" then they needed to be ready. Same idea Jesus gave us.
I don't think it is false hope. If that is so then we have false hope. Is He coming for us? He tells us to hold on, "never will I leave you nor forsake you". Should I not believe that?
Again, not denying that Jerusalem was destroyed and that Jesus prophesied it. But please read the whole passage again in its entirety, not piece by piece from Luke and some from from Mark, but all together. It takes on a new meaning for the preterist.
The "age" or "world" in this context is still valid. It also would not change your view on universal restoration. It just means the return of Christ is for ALL of creation to see, not just for the lucky ones who were born before 2000 years ago. Preterism if correct is depressing and kind of forgets us in this time period.
When Jesus stood in the temple and read from Isaiah, why did He not read the whole prophecy?
Tim said, "I think Paul did include you and me in those who MAY remain."
Yes you can say that but not prove it. But the audience certainly believed him!
Tim said, "Some thought they had missed it for the same reasons why some of us today (preterists) think they missed it, they didn't understand it. I believe Paul was not telling them they would be a part of the event but telling them the reason why he knows it hadn't happened yet is because he was still here. Paul did not know when it would happen. He was telling all to hold on because "if it would happen in their lifetime" then they needed to be ready. Same idea Jesus gave us."
Yes I can agree that the bible can be “written” in a manner that all can take it personally or it written that it for me, etc. God just wanted it to be put in the hearts of all believers. That I get, but then you start drawing lines. Ex) “YOU shall drink anything poison and nothing shall hurt you!
Tim said, "I don't think it is false hope. If that is so then we have false hope. Is He coming for us? He tells us to hold on, "never will I leave you nor forsake you". Should I not believe that?"
I will never leave you or forsake you ..that certainly was a future promise of the working of the Spirit ..Is the Spirit still here ..YES so YES!
YES and No. Some of the more liberating things about Preterist views are that it shuts up others such as Atheists and Jews up who say that Jesus did not do what he claimed He was going to do; return! Therefore He must not be the true Messiah so we will wait! Once you see the true fulfillment and what the New Heaven and earth is all about then evangelism can go forward without any of the escapism mentality “well” wait for Jesus to come to take us out of this mess. More loss time in the last 200 years have been wasted sitting on our hands just wait for the pie in the sky! Real opportunity to try and make a better world. But the most liberating the ending of the endless books, dating setting, people going up on a mountain somewhere, no more false prophets to deal with.
When you die you end up where God is! No jumping back into the dirt again!
Tim said, "Again, not denying that Jerusalem was destroyed and that Jesus prophesied it. But please read the whole passage again in its entirety, not piece by piece from Luke and some from from Mark, but all together. It takes on a new meaning for the preterist.
Again, says who?
Tim said, "The "age" or "world" in this context is still valid. It also would not change your view on universal restoration."
Agreed 100%. Truth is I don’t need any End times Events one way or other! IF I die today! “end Time” events has no connection to me!
Tim said, "It just means the return of Christ is for ALL of creation to see, not just for the lucky ones who were born before 2000 years ago. Preterism if correct is depressing and kind of forgets us in this time period."
At first I felt the same way but no longer!
Tim said, "When Jesus stood in the temple and read from Isaiah, why did He not read the whole prophecy?"
Not sure what that has to do with anything, Jesus was never accustomed to quoting or repeating any scripture to its full read or meaning! He Himself only used proof texting quotes.. the good news was He got it right every time! LOL!
I was listening to Brown and Preston debate and it was so interesting how they managed to keep hopping over each other due to their both preconceived ideas.
About rereading the whole text as though I nor others have not. That’s always a good distraction to tell others what they need to do, lol! An important note those that have made these transitions are well studied persons. I laugh but the Baptist Theologian Hunn who became Catholic was told over and over by his former Baptists how he was not using the correct exegetical formula, etc. IF it was that easy just to do it the other guy’s way how many interpretations would it all boil down to? lol! I Don’t think that is the issues it is more about a mindset or even a psychological state of the mind. It is like the old ink blot test it not so much of connecting all the “right” words in order it something much different. We are all guilty of accusing the other guy of not letting the Holy Spirit guiding like they are thus, like our friend.
I’m not sure but I think I had asked this before if this is correct… does God have TODAY … 2 Kingdoms, 2 Chosen people, 2 covenants, 2 Races of people, 2 Nations 2 Priesthoods, 2 Israel, 2 Jerusalem. IF YOU DON”T ANSWER ANY OF THE THINGS ABOUT THIS POST GIVE A YES OR NO ON THIS QUESTION! LOL!
About the Matthew and the other Passages you and others would hold that there are two or three distinct questions therefore it must demand 2 or 3 distinct and different answers or events. You would not think it unreasonable for one answer or event to fit and multi-question? Quick question …. Acts 1:6
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
We read more and he tells them about the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel (we see this as event of Pentecost, right?)
Why would they re-ask this question if He already told them in the Mt. Of Olive discourse as some have said…my point is you can rule out the Pentecost had anything to do with the subject at hand?
They Ask about “The kingdom of Israel” my question is what Kingdom of Israel? … He is talking about “restore” something that they are wanting to hold on to? What do they mean by restoring? Old wine skins can not hold new wine! I suggest this type of questioning is just one more thing that Jesus did not want to get involved in , since He knew the Spirit of Truth was of His way! Again Is there or is there not A New “Israel”? Is there or is there not A New Nation, A new Priesthood, a New people? And lastly a new Covenant? My opinion folks are making the same mistakes as the typical Jewish mentality.
When Paul (In Romans) spoke of the many things he did using terminology about the “salvation of Israel”, it promises and anything prophetic was all pre-destruction of everything, city, nation, law, the religion of Judaism.
ONE OF THE HARDEST THINGS to do as I read the New Test is to keep in mind that as you read those words Romans etc., and Even Revelation they still being overshadowed by what is coming. The destruction (passing away) of Judaism, Temple, law, THE Mosaic, and the preparation for the NEW Jerusalem NEW Heaven and Earth (ALL on a Spiritual or Metaphysical) realm if you like!
Of course the audience believed Paul. We are his audience too though. Is scripture only for those who lived before 70 AD??
Anon said, "I will never leave you or forsake you ..that certainly was a future promise of the working of the Spirit ..Is the Spirit still here ..YES so YES!"
So that is for all future generations or just the one He was talking to? How do we know the Spirit is still here? Maybe the Helper was just for that generation and it is no longer here. After all Paul said that which is holding him back must be taken out of the world. What does that mean? Is he taken out of the world?
Anon said, "YES and No. Some of the more liberating things about Preterist views are that it shuts up others such as Atheists and Jews up who say that Jesus did not do what he claimed He was going to do; return!"
It may shut them up but it doesn't mean it's correct. If anything it would give them more ammunition because we can't prove He came. There would be more people than just Josephus recording that ALL eyes saw Him return.
Anon said, "Therefore He must not be the true Messiah so we will wait! Once you see the true fulfillment and what the New Heaven and earth is all about then evangelism can go forward without any of the escapism mentality “well” wait for Jesus to come to take us out of this mess. More loss time in the last 200 years have been wasted sitting on our hands just wait for the pie in the sky!"
How is it a waste of time? If anything it gives us more hope. Jesus is returning for me. I will get to see Him come in His glory. If He never comes back is believing in Him a waste of time? Who said those who are futurist are sitting on their hands? Actually that is what Paul warned the Thessalonians about and they in your view "was that generation". He told them keep going. Preterism is what causes people to sit on their hands and not do anything because if we missed the return then what is there to look forward to besides death?
Anon said, "Truth is I don’t need any End times Events one way or other! IF I die today! “end Time” events has no connection to me!"
In that case nothing we do in life matters. Creation means nothing. The flood means nothing. David's worship means nothing. The Resurrection means nothing. The end times is still part of the plan of God. I know what you are trying to say but it does have meaning.
Anon said, "Not sure what that has to do with anything, Jesus was never accustomed to quoting or repeating any scripture to its full read or meaning! He Himself only used proof texting quotes.. the good news was He got it right every time! LOL!"
Because ALL of scripture has a purpose. There is a reason why Jesus stopped at that point. And in this passage it's because the Day of Lord is the part He did not say and that is because it was not the time. He was not here to fulfill that scripture.
Anon said, "About rereading the whole text as though I nor others have not. That’s always a good distraction to tell others what they need to do, lol!"
Not my intention at all. We got off the track of what the post was about. For the last three years I have tried to put together the full story as much as possible to see the connections more clearer and to see what those who traveled with Him may have gotten to see. And it's been amazing to see it fall into place. So, I said go back and read the again to see a different perspective to see what I am saying.
Anon said, "I’m not sure but I think I had asked this before if this is correct… does God have TODAY … 2 Kingdoms, 2 Chosen people, 2 covenants, 2 Races of people, 2 Nations 2 Priesthoods, 2 Israel, 2 Jerusalem."
I don't understand the connection yet but:
2 Kingdoms, No.
2 Chosen people, No.
2 covenants, depends on the purpose of the covenant.
2 races of people??????
2 nations?????
I don't get these meanings.
Continued......
Anon said, "About the Matthew and the other Passages you and others would hold that there are two or three distinct questions therefore it must demand 2 or 3 distinct and different answers or events. You would not think it unreasonable for one answer or event to fit and multi-question? Quick question …. Acts 1:6...We read more and he tells them about the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel (we see this as event of Pentecost, right?)... They Ask about “The kingdom of Israel” my question is what Kingdom of Israel? … He is talking about “restore” something that they are wanting to hold on to? What do they mean by restoring? Old wine skins can not hold new wine! I suggest this type of questioning is just one more thing that Jesus did not want to get involved in, since He knew the Spirit of Truth was on His way! Again Is there or is there not A New “Israel”? Is there or is there not A New Nation, A new Priesthood, a New people? And lastly a new Covenant? My opinion folks are making the same mistakes as the typical Jewish mentality."
I don't get what you mean. The disciples were asking if He would bring back the kingdom to Israel, the nation itself. Simon was a zealot. He may have been looking for the physical restoration of breaking away the power of Rome and given back to Israel like in the days of David. It's not that He didn't get involved with the question. He simply answered their concern about "when" it will take place. It has nothing to do with old wine skins and new wine skins (which is of course referring to the covenants of law and grace).
Anon, "When Paul (In Romans) spoke of the many things he did using terminology about the “salvation of Israel”, it promises and anything prophetic was all pre-destruction of everything, city, nation, law, the religion of Judaism."
As you said earlier, you can say that but you can't prove it. Yes, it was before the destruction but does that mean all the promises are only for those who lived before 70AD?
I could go round and round with this and comment on everything in opposition to your view. I don't know if that is the best way to go. So my main point to all of this is when scripture speaks it is for the whole, not the partial. Creation--ALL of the universe. The Flood---ALL of the earth. Jesus died for ALL. Preach the gospel to ALL the world. ALL will. He is coming in the clouds and ALL will see Him. All of the promises are for ALL who believe. Whoever believes in Him---not just those before 70 AD. If that is the case then how was His return before ALL who had the chance to know Him?
So, how will we, those after 70 AD, be called home to heaven? Why would Paul and John only tell us about one return? Why wouldn't they tell use about another return for us? It strictly says His first coming was to be savior, His second coming was to be judge. Did He already judge? What will He be if He returns a third time? Or are we just living this life waiting to die?
lol! WE are doing Exactly what the folks were doing in the video debates only worse because it is in this form of communication. One missed used word or over statement of what the other person has said or a slight twisting of what is being said creates chaos. But continue the studies is a must!
Yes. But my points are valid. :)
You say that preterism does away with all the end time questions, but it adds more to me. If preterism is the answer:
1. How many times will Jesus return? If He would come to earth a third time why didn't scripture tell us this? I mean, one of the biggest arguments is why wouldn't John write about an event that would be so big if it hadn't happened yet, so he must have written it before 70 AD. But, the same idea is here. If there would be a third advent then why wouldn't the world know about it through scripture? It was prophesied He would be born. It was prophesied He would return, but then why would the end times NOT be prophesied and we be told of another return?
2. What happens to us who live after 70 AD? Are we just waiting for the end of our lives?
3. Are the gifts and promises of the Bible for us too? Are we left without the Spirit, because the Spirit is supposed to be gone for the anti-Christ to come and have power.
4. Is Satan already destroyed?
5. When did 1/3 of the world die?
6. When did all of the fish in the sea die?
Everything that Jesus did was physical, yet most of preterism focuses on allegorical or metaphorically. He birth was real. His death was real. His resurrection was real. His appearance to Paul was real. So (full preterism) why would His return by a metaphor?
Everything that Jesus did or said was for ALL. His death was for all. His promises were for all. His return will be for all. So why (partial preterism) would it be only for a few?
It took 1600 years Noah. It took 1900 years to live before the covenant of faith and Abraham was establish. It would take another 400 years before the Law came around. It took another 1500 years for the Law to go away. Why would it only be 35 years for grace? Now if that which worked death, by means of a written text engraved on stone tablets, came with glory — such glory that the people of Israel could not stand to look at Moses' face because of its brightness, even though that brightness was already fading away —won’t the working of the Spirit be accompanied by even greater glory? The working of the Spirit is grace and truth. If it was so great then why would only a few get the chance to have it?
Well let me try this. Please understand I am still working through this whole process of the preterist view. When I went to Cincinnati Bible College in the 70’s, I did do some research on the Four Views on the Millennium end times thinking, and I find it as confusing now as it was then! Of course the school was Amillennialist and or Pan-millennialist which basically says the 1000 yrs. reign is figurative and not literal.
See if I have this half right?
The Millennialist basically puts Israel (of Today) in the center of the bible prophesies.
Amillennialist and others see the 70 AD as something much more significant and Israel's prophesies are minor or at zero. This depends on if your partial or full Preterist and Jesus has come as He stated or He is yet to come!
The full Preterist says all the promises/prophesy that Paul spoke of regarding Israel (especially in Romans) were fulfilled in some manner in a more spiritual or figurative manner during the 7 yrs. period of time and there after! They also have reason they believe that the Book of Rev. was written before the destruction of the city that the Lord was slain in and that is much of the information that Rev. contains referencing the “things” that were to shortly come to pass. They would also conclude that failure to understand what the church/kingdom is, (today) is to deny it’s truth.
The church is the New Israel / the Church is the New Jerusalem. The Church is the Only Bride! The Church represents all of this …not the land or the people overseas…unless they have excepted Christ!
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation Not Jews, a royal priesthood No Jews, an holy nation, NO LAND, a peculiar people (NO JEWISH RACE); that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;
1. The Jews today are not the real Jews!
2. They have no Covenant, they are divorced, they are like the rest of the enemies/lost people.
3. Jesus had already stood in the “REBUILT” Temple, His feet did touch the Mt. of Olives and etc..which was Daniel’s and all the other Old Test. Prophesies
4. He fulfilled and did All that He set out to do!
5. The whole idea of rebuilding a temple (today) and bringing back animal sacrifices would in some way or gesture be a slap in the Face of God and His perfect sacrifice that was performed ONCE and for All, never, never , never to return.
6. These are just a few of their objections to Israel and what others think about their role, almost to the point that they are accused of being anti-Semitic.
Although one could argue and successfully to some point about Israel from 1948 and on how this has happened or that was fulfilled and use the bible to back up their views and how Hitler was the Anti-Christ. Good Luck on telling the Jews that Hitler was in reality being used by God to bring His will about! It was God’s punishment on them! Is the Hand of God still moving with Israel? Is the hand of God moving with other countries, is God’s hand moving on the USA?
Is the Church there? Then Yes, Is the work of the Spirit still working, Yes! Does God still have a special land …Yes and No only if His church is there! But not dirt/earth there is nothing more holy there than it is here!
Even after saying all of that...every ones views should be should treated with respect and this is where the real problem starts and ends!
Tim said, "preterism does away with all the end time questions, but it adds more to me. If preterism is the answer..."
NO I think is said madness, date settings. People selling their homes going up on a mountain and waiting for His return, escapism. There are always questions; it does create a more narrow narrative without all the complexity and confusion.
Tim asked, "How many times will Jesus return? If He would come to earth a third time why didn't scripture tell us this?"
Who said anything about a “third” time? A fundamental problem is not recognizing His “return” as the RETURN of 70 AD. This was the return He spoke of and all the Phraseology used in the Old Test. are the same as the New TEST. "Behold He rides on the clouds, the Lord “Came down” and the mountains, melted like wax, And He will come in like manner …what like manner? All the terminology like the “gathering together”, being caught up, fulfillment of Old Israel resurrection promises (bones rising from the dirt) were being fulfilled thru Jesus….He set a captive of host freed from Hades. The graves were open and the death came out on the day he died another fulfillment.
Tim said, "I mean, one of the biggest arguments is why wouldn't John write about an event that would be so big if it hadn't happened yet, so he must have written it before 70 AD."
YES before 70 AD ..it was to be a big event as John says! If the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and John wrote after that..he was told to go and get a measuring stick and measure the temple, he can’t measure something that is not there!
Tim said, "But, the same idea is here. If there would be a third advent then why wouldn't the world know about it through scripture?"
What 3rd event?
Tim said, "It was prophesied He would be born. It was prophesied He would return, but then why would the end times NOT be prophesied and we be told of another return?
????
Tim said, "What happens to us who live after 70 AD? Are we just waiting for the end of our lives?"
ME: Seriously …your life could be over in a second. “JUST WAITING” Isn’t that what you doing now…LOL! . WE are living in the Kingdom that has no end, Jesus is reigning, the Church or the bride and the Spirit are still saying “come”. Evangelism is more important than ever. The Spirit is still working with and on us for that time when we will all see Him face to face , WE will ALL kneel and confess the Glory of the Lord (NOTE: IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE DONE ALL OF US AT ONE TIME…this can happen massively or individually as we go through the Lake of Fire). People need to experience the love of God NOW, TODAY is still the day of salvation. Your objections does not make any sense!
Tim said, "Are the gifts and promises of the Bible for us too? Are we left without the Spirit, because the Spirit is supposed to be gone for the anti-Christ to come and have power."
YES! Anti-Christ (talk later)
Tim said, "Is Satan already destroyed?"
Describe ..destroyed? I know the FINAL end of fate!
Tim said, "When did 1/3 of the world die?" and "When did all of the fish in the sea die?"
TALK LATER
Tim said, "Everything that Jesus did was physical, yet most of preterism focuses on allegorical or metaphorically. He birth was real. His death was real. His resurrection was real. His appearance to Paul was real. So (full preterism) why would His return by a metaphor?"
YES you are half right…but you are not saying that Jesus never used Metaphors? This is my Body…real? MY WORDS ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE? HIS COMING WAS REAL< HIS JUDGEMENT WAS VERY REAL! IF THIS IS WHAT HE ACTUALLY MEANT WHO AM I TO ARGUE!!!
Tim said, "Everything that Jesus did or said was for ALL. His death was for all. His promises were for all. His return will be for all. So why (partial preterism) would it be only for a few?"
NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN
Tim said, "It took 1600 years Noah. It took 1900 years to live before the covenant of faith and Abraham was establish. It would take another 400 years before the Law came around. It took another 1500 years for the Law to go away. Why would it only be 35 years for grace?"
What do you mean? GRACE IS STILL HERE!
Tim said, "Now if that which worked death, by means of a written text engraved on stone tablets, came with glory — such glory that the people of Israel could not stand to look at Moses' face because of its brightness, even though that brightness was already fading away —won’t the working of the Spirit be accompanied by even greater glory?
The working of the Spirit is grace and truth. If it was so great then why would only a few get the chance to have it?"
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